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alterted states of consciosuness
September 2009 
Professor Charley Tart Videos On Transference and Other Subjects
Posted on Nov 27th, 2007
by 
Jordan
Jordan
Well, I am very pleased to once again make available video clips from the 1999 interview I did with Professor Charley Tart. I'm embedding just one of those videos here (a timely clip having to do with spiritual teachers not understanding transference) in this blog, but for the rest of them, please go to http://www.enlightenment.com/media/videointerviews/tart2.html.
Why should you care about what Charley Tart has to say? Well, Professor Tart is a long-time consciousness researcher who has written seminal books on alterted states of conscoisuness, parapsychology, and many other fascinating subjects. He's also a very down to earth and nice man who walks his talk and has a lot to say of value about many subjects.
Personally, when I was back in college in the late 1970's, I ran into his book on parapsychology (PSI) and was literally gripped by his careful scientific evaluation and systematic way of approaching the subject. I feel very lucky to have met him and spent a little time with him later in my life.
In any case, enjoy this clip, and then come take a look at the rest of them. -- Jordan
Why should you care about what Charley Tart has to say? Well, Professor Tart is a long-time consciousness researcher who has written seminal books on alterted states of conscoisuness, parapsychology, and many other fascinating subjects. He's also a very down to earth and nice man who walks his talk and has a lot to say of value about many subjects.
Personally, when I was back in college in the late 1970's, I ran into his book on parapsychology (PSI) and was literally gripped by his careful scientific evaluation and systematic way of approaching the subject. I feel very lucky to have met him and spent a little time with him later in my life.
In any case, enjoy this clip, and then come take a look at the rest of them. -- Jordan
"Transference" by Charley Tart from Enlightenment.Com i
Access: Public
How, do you feel about that Jordan? Have you ever had that kind of experience or do you find it interesting that parapsychologists and esteemed scientists can become a little fuzzy and less effective because of the side of effect caused by transference….especially dangerous, if they are doing research and their opinions are highly regarded but flawed because of it? And they do not know that their consciousness has been altered in and during the process?
My experience is that transference is just as widespread as Charley Tart says it is here, and just as unrecognized.
I have known one enlightened person who was extremely aware of the problems of trasnference, and as a result, he essentially opted out of being in the public eye and keeps to himself. Whether someone can move forward in teaching and instructing others without transference rearing its ugly head…I kind of doubt it. This is one reason, I think, why it is generally inappropriate (in the sense that it doesn't work well) for most Westerners to have gurus or spiritual teachers who hold themselves out as being enlightened.
What is your experience here, Bryan?
Because I am a very good psychic/intuitive, and I am very humanistic, some people do treat me that way. It turns me off and drains me. I accept it with a smile, and then I split!
But for those, which are heavily invested in their careers, there are institutional monsters, which were built by big egos to get to that level of success, and now these big monsters have big appetites to feed.
Yes, there are traps and side effects, yet some professions (including spiritual teachers) at that level of success are ego-driven, consequently there are psycho-social predispositions inherent to the expert/teacher. It is ironic that these are experts and teachers in the process of human thinking, social interaction, and pure consciousness experience, an (un)necessary evil to reach the pentacle.
The key is in knowing that the phenomenon exists – not for the sake of avoiding it, but for the sake of building relationships along the way creating a social atmosphere, which is healthier for everyone, I think. Otherwise, it is a drag….
Well, it's sort of like the multiple sub-personality theory of humanity (taught to me by my mentor, Jim Fadiman, but also taught by others).
The reality is that anyone you know – and I may *anyone* – is capable of shifting into a sub-persontliy that is somewhat or substantially different than the one you normally experience them as being in. In that sub-personality, they may do things that surprise, shock, or even harm you. This doesn't mean they are fundamentally different, it means that there is a part of them that has temporarily “taken over center stage” and is charge for right now.
So, knowing that anyone is capable of being “other” than their normal selves prepares us – or at least, prepares me – for anyone to potentially do anything at any time. That is, when even the people I love most in the world, and know best, do something that seems really bizarre, it no longer surprises me. Nor does it shock me when I do something that I thought I would never do.
That was kind of long-winded, but the point is that the full-on-transference-loving guru is potentially hidden inside of every teacher, and anyone who gets extremely involved with another, especially if that other has subtle energy “powers,” should make sure they stay relatively grounded and don't do anything too preciiptious.
Yeah, and if one does do something preciiptious…it comes back and bites in a preciiptious way ..(lol)
Just how much of this is rote human nature playing itself out …probably a lot…but not expected by those we put on pedestals.
And how much of transference is basic human need to transfer responsibility?….Oh the trance is infinite…
Who is more accountable then, Jordan? The masses or the guru (smile)…
Who is more vulnerable?
Good questions. I think the answer is: both, and neither, or rather, it's up to each of us to be as accountable as we can in every moment. Nothing less is gonna do it in the long run…
Well…..I'm not done speaking with you, Lightwriter!
I have recently become a member of a private, but interactive group called INPresence (outside of Zaadz), cultivated by Jeffrey Mishlove. Do you know who he is and do you know of his work?
Off to the gymn!
I know Jeff a little through Zaadz, and I've been familiar with his work since he first put out the roots of consciousness back when I was in college, a long time ago. Sounds interesting. What is the group's goal?
I
Well, as he described it to me:
“The Intuition Network does not have “members” as such. No dues. No membership cards. However, we do sponsor a private email discussion list for individuals (such as Cynthia Sue Larson) who are professionals in the field.”
I am interviewing Cynthia on my Making It All Click, which is the reason why he mentioned her. Prior to that I had interviewed several other individuals on the private group mail listing out of personal individual interest, and not in the group, per se, then I had approached Jeffrey for an interview, and he said, “Yes.”
Still having more people in the group to interview, because I had not finished them all yet, I had decided it would be good to ask to join since it seemed I would possibly be interested in even more individuals in the group, and felt it better to work that objective as a member, and actually was at that time sincerely interested in being on the list, because I was quite fond of those I had interviewed so far, and I intuitively liked Jeffrey and the feeling was mutual.
I was kind of wondering why you two have not met. Your work is very well directed, and that you two do not interact at all, was intuitively interesting. With your interviews and Jeffrey's interviews of the process, the research, the developments, and even some personalities in the field with whom you two share a common interest, I'd imagine you two would interact.
I knew I was going to bring this up eventually.
Here is a link: http://www.intuition.org/
Is there more would you like to know? Write me back, Jordan!
Hi Jordon:
Great link!
Do you think the opposite could also be true, that there are many of us now out there who are actually overly sensitive to transference?
I've done some shadow work recently on disowned power and have become aware of how uncomfortable it can be to be esteemed by another. And to set aside any suspicion that it's false modesty at work here, I may fully agree with the praise but remain wary of the intensity of someone's need to extoll it on me. It's like, I feel somehow committed to never letting this person down, or that their expectations of me are now suddenly my responsibility.
It then occurred to me that this might be pointing out a fear of power, or more specifically, a fear of it's abuse that makes wielding power somehow problematic. Genpo Roshi recently said something like, “if we cannot own our power, we will abuse it and likely not even know it.”
Could my fear of abusing power leave me reluctant to live from my deepest truth? I mean, it seems that a culture such as ours tends to leave us feeling somewhat ashamed of our depth, and simply connecting deeply with another person can, at atimes, open up a Pandora's box of projections, be them heroic, romantic, sexual, or just plain spiritual.
With this in mind, it becomes quite a burden to lead, or even simply to love. The only solution appears to be facing whatever THAT is.
~Katie
Great comment, Katie.
My take is that you are right, that is, that there is both too little knowledge of transference actually going on and too much senstivitiy to any possibility of it. Guess we havev to find the golden mean.
Your point about power is a very important one. A channeled entity that I once used to avidly follow (Bartholemew, back in the days when there weren't that many of them and Bart came recommended to me by close friends) made the point that, collectively, because of what had happened earlier in the 20th century, as a whole we are all very reluctant to actually embrace and use our power. And Genpo Roshi's point would follow direclty form that.
I myself often feel pretty darn weird if anybody wants too much of anything from me (while at the same time wanting more of a lot of certain types of things…praise, gentle but not too much admiration, etc., from a lot of people). I think this is all something we all have to look at carefully as we “come into our power.”
Thanks again for your stimulating comment.
Hey, Jordan, I just connected with Charles (Tart). He has a new book coming out, and he and I will interview over it….I'll keep you posted…
I would like to address this with him also:
The dynamic interaction amongst being, experiencing, impressing and observing with respect to how we integrate these processes as general consciousness.
I'd like to also address practical consciousness, which is what he may refer to as mindful living. I'd also like to discuss disciplines of spiritual growth as a part of overall development in human potential individually and collectively.
Use this link to stay up-to-date regarding all Making It All Click-Visionary Series Interviews!
I'm sure Charley will be a wonderful inteviewee on all of these. Are you doing this by phone, or in person (and if so, where)?
Good luck!
– Jordan
I am releasing it as a podcast, which is archived being a part of my most recent Making It All Click project, called the Visionary Series and, yes, I conduct them over the phone.
Here is a link, which connects to this upcoming podcast, as well as the others (like with Cynthia Sue Larson) that I produced starting January 2008 until now. I am interviewing almost daily, and plan to syndicate, now that I have met critical mass.
Making It All Click-Visionary Series Interviews!
Charles' interview will be a gem of a conversation. Here is an abbreviated list of those who I have interviewed and are scheduled to interview for this Visionary Series project:
Abbreviated list of participants.
So, the conversation continues. I'd like to interview you too, Jordan. You are an interesting fellow and obviously a great fit for this series, especially in that you and I have very similar commitments to positive thought.
Bryan,
I'd be happy to be interviewed by you. I will say, though, that other than the rebounding (where I take myself to be something like a serious 2nd generation pioneer or practitioner), for the most part I have been a secondary source rather than a primary source. That is, yes, I've met, befriended, or interviewed people like Ken Wilber (1st ever audio interview!), Charley Tart, Russell Targ, Jim Fadiman, Jean Houston, Tim Leary, Robert Anton Wilson, and so on, but by and large my contribution has been as an interviewer, digester, and synthesizer, rather than an original producer of new material.
On the other hand, I have put out a fairly consistent string of journals (which I have to get back online!), book reviews, and interviews, all centering around the non-trivial understanding of the concept of “we co-create our own realities” (see my ”You Create Your Own Orthodoxy”), so perhaps an interview with me would make sense after all. Your call, buddy. But thanks for thinking of me in any case!
Daily interviewing is a tough road to hoe unless you're really well-organized and have a good amount of resources behind you. Congratulations, in advance, for making it happen!
best,
Jordan
Yeah, you would be a great fit for this series – good energy. Are those links above where I would learn more about you?
I will check this out:
(see my ”You Create Your Own Orthodoxy”),
Let me know, if there is more….and yeah I got organized….and I had people calling me daily back to back…sometimes two to three interviews per day. The Force is with me (Star Wars Force, that is).
One interview per week wasn't cutting it!
I'll drop back by to chat some more with you and to set this up!
B.